Migrate Oracle Forms to Apex
A number of the Apex community are getting excited about the release of the Forms to Apex convertor and its fair to say many Forms customers are interested in this idea of conversion to a familiar PL/SQL world so I thought it might be in the community spirit to help the community understand how to approach a project of conversion and outline a list of questions that you probably need to fully understand and have answered, before embarking down the conversion road - look on it like a list of interview questions to get past the resume gloss ;o)
So pop pickers, here are our top 20 questions...you may want to add your own..
1) Am I considering conversion for the "right" reasons?
a) Am I aware of Oracle's statement of direction on application development tools and specifically Oracle Forms?
b) Am I sure that Apex is the right environment for my application development?
c) Am I aware of Oracle's strategic enterprise application development platform for their Fusion applications (JDeveloper/ADF/SOA etc)?
2) What are my expectations for a Forms application being converted to Apex?
a) Do I want it to look and behave like Forms?
a1) Will I be getting the best out of Apex in that case?
b) Do I want it to look and behave like a "typical" Apex application?
b1) Do I need to retrain my end users?
3) Will the conversion take into account architectural differences between Forms and Apex
a) How much rearchitecure is involved in converting a stateful Forms application to a stateless Apex application?
a1) How will the converter help in in this task?
a2) What would be the estimate of time/cost for a typical 100
Form application?
b) Do I need to take into account different in the UI technologies
including layout and application flow?
b1) How will the converter help in in this task?
b2) If our users are used to manipulating multiple windows/forms can we still support that behaviour?
b3) What would be the estimate of time/cost for a typical 100 Form application?
4) Will my Forms triggers be converted to Apex equivalents?
5) Will my PLLs be converted?
6) What will happen to Forms built-ins like Set_Block_Property, Set_Item_Property?
7) Will the converter refactor my code into UI specific and data specific layers
a) How will it distinguish Forms code and triggers that are both UI and data action
8) Will my blocks based on stored procedures be converted?
9) Will menus be converted?
a) How should I best implement a typical complex Forms menu hierarchy?
b) How should I implement Forms menu security?
10) Will my popup menus be converted?
a) Will other skills be required to support this behaviour in Apex?
11) Will object libraries be converted?
a) How will I maintain consistent look and feel as I did with object libraries?
b) How will I build reusable libraries of components as I did with object libraries?
c) Will any of the above require me to know skills other than PL/SQL?
12) Are there any Forms specific features that won't convert, for example, Query By Example?
13) How are control block converted?
14) How shall I approach team development and sharing of common objects like reference forms, PLLs, MMBs and OLB.
15) How "free" is Apex? Will I NEVER pay to run my Apex applications or will this be tied to database processor/user license?
16) How do I handle reporting?
a) Should I convert Oracle Reports or can I still call them from my converted application?
17) Show me references of customers who have used this convertor and how they addressed the above points.
18) Will my data entry operators still have the same instant validation model?
a) Will my validation triggers be converted automatically?
b) How will field level validation be implemented in Apex?
19) Will my data entry operators be abe to use the same "hot key" combinations?
a) Will this be converted automatically?
b) How will this be implemented in Apex?
20) How do I implemented client side integration with things like client side printers, scanners, barcode readers (Webutil like integration)?
Of course, these are just a sample of the questions you should be asking - you may want to post your own questions here and I can add to this list.
Comments:
Comment from:
hafed [Visitor]
· http://www.degenio.com
Hi Grant,
Really nice list for those attempting a Forms to Apex conversion. However, there are a couple of questions.
Seems like the Forms group and the Apex group within Oracle are fighting each other and your list tends to show that, although I see it myself as a wake up call for those who might be tempted to jump in without fully understanding why they want to to turn to Apex. Point 15 is the most troublesome for me as you seem to imply there are costs involved with Apex. The last time I attended an Oracle presentation, Oracle sales representatives did mention it was all FREE.
Point 3 and especially the100-Form mark needs not be. At that point, we are no longer in the departmental range and it is a waste of time to even consider moving to Apex. Better may be to move to java-platform if people want to throw out their Forms app.
Point 16 is the most interesting one for enterprise applications and the most fun to deal with for those attempting migration. That is a costly process even for a Forms to forms conversion.
But all in all, I think anyone planning a Forms to Apex conversion should print out your list and hand it to management.
Really nice list for those attempting a Forms to Apex conversion. However, there are a couple of questions.
Seems like the Forms group and the Apex group within Oracle are fighting each other and your list tends to show that, although I see it myself as a wake up call for those who might be tempted to jump in without fully understanding why they want to to turn to Apex. Point 15 is the most troublesome for me as you seem to imply there are costs involved with Apex. The last time I attended an Oracle presentation, Oracle sales representatives did mention it was all FREE.
Point 3 and especially the100-Form mark needs not be. At that point, we are no longer in the departmental range and it is a waste of time to even consider moving to Apex. Better may be to move to java-platform if people want to throw out their Forms app.
Point 16 is the most interesting one for enterprise applications and the most fun to deal with for those attempting migration. That is a costly process even for a Forms to forms conversion.
But all in all, I think anyone planning a Forms to Apex conversion should print out your list and hand it to management.
02/04/09 @ 14:04
Comment from:
Roel [Visitor]
· http://roelhartman.blogspot.com
It's obvious the Forms Conversion functionality of APEX is not a silver bullet. The more business rules you've implemented in your Forms - using triggers, program units and libraries - the harder a conversion (any conversion, 'even' to JDev) will be. You could repost the same list of (good!) questions and replace APEX with JDev...or Ruby...or whatever other technology.
(BTW point 16 is one of the easiest to solve in APEX because starting a report is just calling an URL, and APEX is very good at that ;-) ).
(BTW point 16 is one of the easiest to solve in APEX because starting a report is just calling an URL, and APEX is very good at that ;-) ).
02/04/09 @ 14:24
Comment from:
Grant Ronald [Member]
Hi Roel - personally I think its obvious its not a silver bullet, you think its obvious and I'm pretty sure David Peake and his team know its not a silver bullet as well. I'm not convinced EVERYONE knows that - and while they may not think its a silver bullet, the may at least think its still a bullet of some sort. And so what this list is doing is outlining the areas you need to be finding out information on. Lets face it, we can all watch an emp/dep conversion and be impressed but these are the questions you really need to address (and you are right, the same is true for ANY conversion). Its not supposed to be a list to knock Apex conversion but to give Forms customers a checklist.
Regarding point 16 - yes it is easy to call but maybe you would like to answer: sure you can call a URL but if you are converting your Forms, why keep your Reports? If you want to keep them in Reports then its a quick check and thats good news - but if you don't, what are the options???
Thanks for your comment
Regarding point 16 - yes it is easy to call but maybe you would like to answer: sure you can call a URL but if you are converting your Forms, why keep your Reports? If you want to keep them in Reports then its a quick check and thats good news - but if you don't, what are the options???
Thanks for your comment
03/04/09 @ 09:10
Comment from:
Grant Ronald [Member]
Hafed - thanks for your comments - honestly, there is no in-fighting ;o) Only a couple of weeks ago I was sharing a meal and a beer with David Peake (Apex Product Manager) and discussing conversion.
However, I did want to "balance" the "excitement" with some practical down to earth advice on how to approach.
Regarding point 15 - you'll need to ask the Apex experts - but there is "free" and there is "free" - and there is the old saying that there is no such thing as a free lunch (and I kinda hope so since Oracle pays my salary - I'm hoping Oracle are trying to run at a profit!)
Regarding the "100 form mark" - again you are right - but there are still some customers who are thinking that if they are considering converting they might go the full hog.
Thanks for your comments - my goal is just to help guide and educate people on the process involved. I'm sure if we can get this list "out there" that surely can only be good for the community.
Thanks
Grant
However, I did want to "balance" the "excitement" with some practical down to earth advice on how to approach.
Regarding point 15 - you'll need to ask the Apex experts - but there is "free" and there is "free" - and there is the old saying that there is no such thing as a free lunch (and I kinda hope so since Oracle pays my salary - I'm hoping Oracle are trying to run at a profit!)
Regarding the "100 form mark" - again you are right - but there are still some customers who are thinking that if they are considering converting they might go the full hog.
Thanks for your comments - my goal is just to help guide and educate people on the process involved. I'm sure if we can get this list "out there" that surely can only be good for the community.
Thanks
Grant
03/04/09 @ 09:16
Comment from:
Chris Muir [Visitor]
· http://one-size-doesnt-fit-all.blogspot.com/
Great list Grant, hopefully something David Peake will take time to discuss when he mentions the new Apex facility next time.
In my time I've seen some weird and wonderful JavaBeans plugged into Forms, things that just wouldn't convert to the Apex world (nor web world for that matter) but are pivotal for the business application at hand. IMHO most Forms applications of any reasonable size typically have some of these providing important functionality and would be extremelly important to consider in any Forms to X conversion/migration tool.
Cheers,
CM.
In my time I've seen some weird and wonderful JavaBeans plugged into Forms, things that just wouldn't convert to the Apex world (nor web world for that matter) but are pivotal for the business application at hand. IMHO most Forms applications of any reasonable size typically have some of these providing important functionality and would be extremelly important to consider in any Forms to X conversion/migration tool.
Cheers,
CM.
05/04/09 @ 10:30
Comment from:
Joel R. Kallman [Visitor]
Good points to consider and one which every Forms customer should carefully evaluate. I concur with Roel's statement - these are questions that should be asked when/if considering moving from Forms to anything - APEX, .NET or JDeveloper/ADF. They all apply. And there are many good reasons to stay on Oracle Forms.
I don't understand the point of "hafed" above why APEX isn't even being considered for a 100-Form application, and why "it's a waste of time to even consider moving to APEX". That's not a huge application, and customers have written applications in APEX more than 10 times larger than that. What's so special about the arbitrary 100-Form mark?
Regarding point #15 of "15) How "free" is Apex? Will I NEVER pay to run my Apex applications or will this be tied to database processor/user license?", APEX is not "free", nor has it ever been free. It is a no-cost feature of the Oracle database - if you are licensed and supported for the Oracle database, you are licensed and supported for Oracle Application Express. The cost of APEX is not tied to any processor/user license. There has never been an intent to charge for APEX, and there are none being discussed or planned. It is super-extraordinarily unlikely in my lifetime. #15 is plain and simple FUD with no basis in reality.
And I'll offer you a point #21:
21) If I decide to choose to move from Forms to another technology, will there be *any* similarity between the skills of my current Forms developers and the skills required for the new technology? Or will I be essentially starting from scratch? How long will it take to train them? How much will it cost? How much reuse of my server-side PL/SQL will be possible? Does the new technology embrace the Oracle database, like Oracle Forms?
I don't understand the point of "hafed" above why APEX isn't even being considered for a 100-Form application, and why "it's a waste of time to even consider moving to APEX". That's not a huge application, and customers have written applications in APEX more than 10 times larger than that. What's so special about the arbitrary 100-Form mark?
Regarding point #15 of "15) How "free" is Apex? Will I NEVER pay to run my Apex applications or will this be tied to database processor/user license?", APEX is not "free", nor has it ever been free. It is a no-cost feature of the Oracle database - if you are licensed and supported for the Oracle database, you are licensed and supported for Oracle Application Express. The cost of APEX is not tied to any processor/user license. There has never been an intent to charge for APEX, and there are none being discussed or planned. It is super-extraordinarily unlikely in my lifetime. #15 is plain and simple FUD with no basis in reality.
And I'll offer you a point #21:
21) If I decide to choose to move from Forms to another technology, will there be *any* similarity between the skills of my current Forms developers and the skills required for the new technology? Or will I be essentially starting from scratch? How long will it take to train them? How much will it cost? How much reuse of my server-side PL/SQL will be possible? Does the new technology embrace the Oracle database, like Oracle Forms?
07/04/09 @ 02:06
Comment from:
Grant Ronald [Member]
Joel - you are correct - this list of questions is pretty much the same for any migration and conversion project and if you are a member of ODTUG you will see my up and coming article that discusses the same points when looking at Forms to Fusion and makes many of the same points
Regarding point 15 - I'm not questioning if Apex is free - the question I am offering that people should ask is by putting my application processing into the database - will this impact the total cost I will have to pay for running that application as opposed to if that application was not deployed in the database. There is no FUD about it - that is simply a question you need to ask - and frankly if you are not asking hard questions about your licensing cost I'd be pretty worried.
You last point is very valid as well - from the ADF/JDev side of the house, because much of the development effort comes from the "Forms" side of Oracle's development teams, ADF provides alot of familiar concepts for Forms developers. Apex, on the other hand, has the advantage of being based on PL/SQL scripting language - there are plus and minus points.
With Hafed' comment, my interpretation of his point (and hence my answer) was not that numerically, Apex can't have 100s of screens, of course it can, but a "typical" Forms application tends to be implementing a huge number of business process where as an Apex application, "typically" is less so (and don't think that means it doesn't or it's less advanced than Forms - but the typical sweet spot for the applications lies in different areas of application complexity)
Thanks for your comments.
Grant
Regarding point 15 - I'm not questioning if Apex is free - the question I am offering that people should ask is by putting my application processing into the database - will this impact the total cost I will have to pay for running that application as opposed to if that application was not deployed in the database. There is no FUD about it - that is simply a question you need to ask - and frankly if you are not asking hard questions about your licensing cost I'd be pretty worried.
You last point is very valid as well - from the ADF/JDev side of the house, because much of the development effort comes from the "Forms" side of Oracle's development teams, ADF provides alot of familiar concepts for Forms developers. Apex, on the other hand, has the advantage of being based on PL/SQL scripting language - there are plus and minus points.
With Hafed' comment, my interpretation of his point (and hence my answer) was not that numerically, Apex can't have 100s of screens, of course it can, but a "typical" Forms application tends to be implementing a huge number of business process where as an Apex application, "typically" is less so (and don't think that means it doesn't or it's less advanced than Forms - but the typical sweet spot for the applications lies in different areas of application complexity)
Thanks for your comments.
Grant
07/04/09 @ 09:11
Comment from:
Joel R. Kallman [Visitor]
Grant,
I then misinterpreted point #15, as I'm sure many customers would from the original wording. It's really no different than asking customers to consider how "free" JDeveloper or PHP or Eclipse is. Perhaps it can be better stated as:
15) What will be the total cost to run an equivalent application using the new technology?
And with respect to this question of additional cost on the database, the stateless nature of HTTP (and APEX), presented as a possible negative in 3(a) can actually be a benefit for a large number of applications, requiring *less* overall database resources than equivalent applications on other technologies.
I then misinterpreted point #15, as I'm sure many customers would from the original wording. It's really no different than asking customers to consider how "free" JDeveloper or PHP or Eclipse is. Perhaps it can be better stated as:
15) What will be the total cost to run an equivalent application using the new technology?
And with respect to this question of additional cost on the database, the stateless nature of HTTP (and APEX), presented as a possible negative in 3(a) can actually be a benefit for a large number of applications, requiring *less* overall database resources than equivalent applications on other technologies.
07/04/09 @ 13:01
Comment from:
Grant Ronald [Member]
Joel, yes I think you are right - the whole "look, its all free" is very confusing and I don't think any of the community are helped by mudding the waters - hence me specifically putting a question in there says that you need to clarify - and I not prejudicing by saying whether Forms/JDev or Apex is "more free" than the other - I simply want to create a list of questions that anyone seeking a considerable development undertaking should be asking. (and lets not forget the cost of a software project is so much more than the license anyway)
Similarly I'm not looking to present stateless as a negative - simply to highlight the fact that it is different and these differences need to be addressed (some might be positive some might be negative - again, I am not trying to prejudice - simply to alert people to the differences).
Some of have the luxury of working with much of this technology for years - others are less fortunate and wouldn't even be aware of the differences or be confused by the FUD - hence, wanting to create a checklist to help in formulate a development plan.
Thanks for your comment
Similarly I'm not looking to present stateless as a negative - simply to highlight the fact that it is different and these differences need to be addressed (some might be positive some might be negative - again, I am not trying to prejudice - simply to alert people to the differences).
Some of have the luxury of working with much of this technology for years - others are less fortunate and wouldn't even be aware of the differences or be confused by the FUD - hence, wanting to create a checklist to help in formulate a development plan.
Thanks for your comment
07/04/09 @ 13:32
Comment from:
David Peake [Visitor]
· http://dpeake.blogspot.com
In reference to Chris's comments in particular, when I'm presenting on Converting Forms to APEX I do already cover most of the points outlined. One of my key goals is to not over sell APEX conversion capabilities and ensure that attendees understand that converting Forms requires significant investment and is not going to be easy, no matter what tool you are converting to. I try and get across the fact that any conversion needs to be treated as a formal project and have proper business justification and buy-in from the users.
Over-selling capabilities and under-selling the conversion effort required is definitively not in anyone's best interests, especially the customer's. Microsoft does a great marketing job of selling people on how easy moving to .NET will be. Reality for customers who do choose that path is anything but, as I have heard of several such projects that have failed miserably.
Historically Oracle had one main development tool - Oracle Forms. Now we have several options for those developing with the Oracle Database of which ADF and APEX are the two most popular. Fundamentally ADF and APEX are positioned very differently and have different "sweet spots". Providing different tools ensures that Oracle can best meet any development requirements.
Eventhough APEX is a "no-cost" feature of the Oracle Database, APEX is a strategic tool for Oracle that is responsible for both indirect and direct revenue.
Regards,
David
Over-selling capabilities and under-selling the conversion effort required is definitively not in anyone's best interests, especially the customer's. Microsoft does a great marketing job of selling people on how easy moving to .NET will be. Reality for customers who do choose that path is anything but, as I have heard of several such projects that have failed miserably.
Historically Oracle had one main development tool - Oracle Forms. Now we have several options for those developing with the Oracle Database of which ADF and APEX are the two most popular. Fundamentally ADF and APEX are positioned very differently and have different "sweet spots". Providing different tools ensures that Oracle can best meet any development requirements.
Eventhough APEX is a "no-cost" feature of the Oracle Database, APEX is a strategic tool for Oracle that is responsible for both indirect and direct revenue.
Regards,
David
07/04/09 @ 14:02
Comment from:
Dimitri Gielis [Visitor]
· http://dgielis.blogspot.com
Hi Grant,
I think your list is very useful and you are absolutely right you need to understand what a conversion means.
As you know, I'm also pro APEX and I agree ofcourse with the points that Joel, David and Roel said before.
Joel recommended one more question. I also want to add one:
22) In times where business changes so quickly, how fast can you full-fill your business need with your technology?
Another comment I want to make is, that you can use both Forms and APEX (or another technology) together. In a number of projects our customer had everything in Forms. But a part of their application had to be more open en preferable web based. We gave them APEX and they loved it very much. The truth is that after that initial project, they wanted us to take over other existing functionalities of the Forms application. And the plan is to convert the whole, but we told them it would take time to do (we are speaking of 100+ Forms). But there is no hurry as the existing Forms are still fine.
I think it's important to guide your customer to a new technology, as it means the way of working might be different.
Thanks,
Dimitri
I think your list is very useful and you are absolutely right you need to understand what a conversion means.
As you know, I'm also pro APEX and I agree ofcourse with the points that Joel, David and Roel said before.
Joel recommended one more question. I also want to add one:
22) In times where business changes so quickly, how fast can you full-fill your business need with your technology?
Another comment I want to make is, that you can use both Forms and APEX (or another technology) together. In a number of projects our customer had everything in Forms. But a part of their application had to be more open en preferable web based. We gave them APEX and they loved it very much. The truth is that after that initial project, they wanted us to take over other existing functionalities of the Forms application. And the plan is to convert the whole, but we told them it would take time to do (we are speaking of 100+ Forms). But there is no hurry as the existing Forms are still fine.
I think it's important to guide your customer to a new technology, as it means the way of working might be different.
Thanks,
Dimitri
07/04/09 @ 14:45
Comment from:
John Scott [Visitor]
· http://jes.blogs.shellprompt.net
Grant,
A good list indeed. I'd be much more worried by someone facing a migration/conversion who didn't ask questions than one who asked questions (no matter what those questions are).
As Joel pointed out, #15 is commonly quoted FUD, it does amaze me that some people are more worried by the fact that APEX is no-extra cost than if you actually had to pay extra for it. Do these same people worry that Oracle will start charging for extra for PL/SQL too? (that was not intended to be taken seriously by the way!).
I would actually reword #15 as this -
15) Given that APEX is a no-cost feature of the database, does Oracle have any precedent for then making it an extra-cost feature? (In other words, has a similar Oracle product ever gone from no-cost to extra-cost).
I would also add an extra question -
22) Is it possible, given the way my existing Forms application is architected that I can actually save money overall if I migrate to APEX?
Or...perhaps more generically -
22) - If I migrate to APEX, will my overall running costs -
22.1) Increase.
22.2) Decrease.
22.3) Roughly stay the same.
John.
A good list indeed. I'd be much more worried by someone facing a migration/conversion who didn't ask questions than one who asked questions (no matter what those questions are).
As Joel pointed out, #15 is commonly quoted FUD, it does amaze me that some people are more worried by the fact that APEX is no-extra cost than if you actually had to pay extra for it. Do these same people worry that Oracle will start charging for extra for PL/SQL too? (that was not intended to be taken seriously by the way!).
I would actually reword #15 as this -
15) Given that APEX is a no-cost feature of the database, does Oracle have any precedent for then making it an extra-cost feature? (In other words, has a similar Oracle product ever gone from no-cost to extra-cost).
I would also add an extra question -
22) Is it possible, given the way my existing Forms application is architected that I can actually save money overall if I migrate to APEX?
Or...perhaps more generically -
22) - If I migrate to APEX, will my overall running costs -
22.1) Increase.
22.2) Decrease.
22.3) Roughly stay the same.
John.
07/04/09 @ 14:47
Comment from:
Grant Ronald [Member]
Good to see a broad general agreement in this being a useful checklist ;o).
07/04/09 @ 15:05
Comment from:
JohnA [Visitor]
Dimitri's comment about conversion should be another question:
Do I need to convert everything at once?
a. Can I run both systems side by side?
b. Can I let existing forms die out in their regular end of life, and do new development in Apex?
c. Will a side by side implementation ease the transition?
Do I need to convert everything at once?
a. Can I run both systems side by side?
b. Can I let existing forms die out in their regular end of life, and do new development in Apex?
c. Will a side by side implementation ease the transition?
07/04/09 @ 23:03
Comment from:
Peter de Boer [Visitor]
Grant,
Nice post. I remember a similar discussion about forms conversion/migration when a preview of Apex 3.2 was presented ( http://dgielis.blogspot.com/2008/09/preview-oracle-apex-32-forms-migration.html ). Now the forms conversion functionality is available I must say I was happily suprised when I noticed the "project management" functionality of the converter.
About the list: this is really helpfull, but I am sure the list can be extended when you have actually gone through a 100+ forms conversion process (so please do ;-).
I agree with Dimitri to advise companies to use both Forms and Apex next to each other. In this way, both end users and developers can get used to the differences between both technologies, which will help if you decide to start a conversion project.
Peter
Nice post. I remember a similar discussion about forms conversion/migration when a preview of Apex 3.2 was presented ( http://dgielis.blogspot.com/2008/09/preview-oracle-apex-32-forms-migration.html ). Now the forms conversion functionality is available I must say I was happily suprised when I noticed the "project management" functionality of the converter.
About the list: this is really helpfull, but I am sure the list can be extended when you have actually gone through a 100+ forms conversion process (so please do ;-).
I agree with Dimitri to advise companies to use both Forms and Apex next to each other. In this way, both end users and developers can get used to the differences between both technologies, which will help if you decide to start a conversion project.
Peter
08/04/09 @ 06:47
Comment from:
Torsten Kleiber [Visitor]
Actually I see following additional questions:
1. How can I do massive parallel development? Is there support for multi level development, eg. moving excerpt of my development from development to test to production and in case of failures back.
2. Same question for versioning, this is essential if you are forced by law to build your application to every day of the last 10 years. This should be possible on your basic excerpts to avoid massive disc space comsumption.
3. Is there a way of supported migration of your application to next release and does your environment will exist after next hype. We had developed an UIX (and this was named a quasi standard too) application in the past and every oracle partner we have asked in the past, says we have to redevelop this in new technology, as there is no migration path after UIX died. Same we had in Interconnect as the sap adapter was changed from manufacturer actional to iWay. Did not see such things in forms the last 12 years, except some partial function redevelopment after migration from c/s to web.
1. How can I do massive parallel development? Is there support for multi level development, eg. moving excerpt of my development from development to test to production and in case of failures back.
2. Same question for versioning, this is essential if you are forced by law to build your application to every day of the last 10 years. This should be possible on your basic excerpts to avoid massive disc space comsumption.
3. Is there a way of supported migration of your application to next release and does your environment will exist after next hype. We had developed an UIX (and this was named a quasi standard too) application in the past and every oracle partner we have asked in the past, says we have to redevelop this in new technology, as there is no migration path after UIX died. Same we had in Interconnect as the sap adapter was changed from manufacturer actional to iWay. Did not see such things in forms the last 12 years, except some partial function redevelopment after migration from c/s to web.
08/04/09 @ 08:58
Comment from:
Grant Ronald [Member]
Torsten - good questions - this was actually on my original list - typically a Forms development project can be a high number of developers working in parallel (e.g. EBiz as a more extreme example) and understanding how these teams will work, source control, make builds, roll out patches etc is a critical question to have answered since you may find you have to work in a different fashion to your Forms development.
Thanks for your input.
Thanks for your input.
08/04/09 @ 09:23
Comment from:
hafed [Visitor]
· http://www.degenio.com
@Kallman: Grant has pointed to the main difference I see between Forms and Apex and that is the number of business processes being handled.
I am seeing a number of applications being developed with APEX and those are applications targeted more toward departmental levels, kind of replacing Microsoft Access type applications.
I am not saying that APEX is not suited for applications with 100+ forms. I believe the tool is perfectly capable for those apps. However, I believe that if you are in that range with an already ESTABLISHED Forms app and that you are planning a migration, then an ADF path might be a better choice.
At any rate, it all comes down to what the team is really comfortable with and whether it is Forms 10g-11g/APEX or ADF, a migration plan has to be devised against hard numbers (based on something similar to Grant's list).
I am seeing a number of applications being developed with APEX and those are applications targeted more toward departmental levels, kind of replacing Microsoft Access type applications.
I am not saying that APEX is not suited for applications with 100+ forms. I believe the tool is perfectly capable for those apps. However, I believe that if you are in that range with an already ESTABLISHED Forms app and that you are planning a migration, then an ADF path might be a better choice.
At any rate, it all comes down to what the team is really comfortable with and whether it is Forms 10g-11g/APEX or ADF, a migration plan has to be devised against hard numbers (based on something similar to Grant's list).
08/04/09 @ 13:33
Comment from:
Chris Neumueller [Visitor]
Good points, Grant, and an interesting comment thread.
John Scott rewrote #15 as this:
Given that APEX is a no-cost feature of the database, does Oracle have any precedent for then making it an extra-cost feature? (In other words, has a similar Oracle product ever gone from no-cost to extra-cost).
Actually, this was the case when moving from C/S Forms 6i to the web. In good old C/S days, we could deploy our application to our customers with no extra cost. Now we have to sell the application server and install/maintain the bastard. While I'm a big fan of both Forms and APEX technology, I had more trust in Oracle the company before they pulled that stunt.
If one is about to make a strategic tool decision it's wise to think about the vendor's long-term roadmap for that product, both from a financial and a technological point of view.
John Scott rewrote #15 as this:
Given that APEX is a no-cost feature of the database, does Oracle have any precedent for then making it an extra-cost feature? (In other words, has a similar Oracle product ever gone from no-cost to extra-cost).
Actually, this was the case when moving from C/S Forms 6i to the web. In good old C/S days, we could deploy our application to our customers with no extra cost. Now we have to sell the application server and install/maintain the bastard. While I'm a big fan of both Forms and APEX technology, I had more trust in Oracle the company before they pulled that stunt.
If one is about to make a strategic tool decision it's wise to think about the vendor's long-term roadmap for that product, both from a financial and a technological point of view.
08/04/09 @ 15:34
Comment from:
Grant Ronald [Member]
Well spotted Chris - yes, Forms runtime c/s was free. Although, I keep emphasizing that the cost of a software project is not just of cost of a specific license - if that li
Your last point is interesting as well. When people ask me about the viability of Java/ADF/SOA etc I'm inclined to point to the fact that since its the wagon Oracle have hitched their business applications to, there is a comfort in that.
Thanks for your comment
Your last point is interesting as well. When people ask me about the viability of Java/ADF/SOA etc I'm inclined to point to the fact that since its the wagon Oracle have hitched their business applications to, there is a comfort in that.
Thanks for your comment
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Comment from:
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· http://blog.oracleapex.at
Good list, hope it grows further.
Another important question could be: "Since it is Web Technology, are all common Browsers supported?"
My question is specifically pointing to IE6, which still has about 25% market share and a lot of big companies still use IE6 and can't/won't upgrade to IE7/8.
I don't mean to bash ADF with this one, but - in my eyes - it is very important to be aware of what a tool decision implies.
Source: www.oracle.com/technology/products/jdev/htdocs/jdeveloper11gfaq.html
Peter
Another important question could be: "Since it is Web Technology, are all common Browsers supported?"
My question is specifically pointing to IE6, which still has about 25% market share and a lot of big companies still use IE6 and can't/won't upgrade to IE7/8.
I don't mean to bash ADF with this one, but - in my eyes - it is very important to be aware of what a tool decision implies.
Source: www.oracle.com/technology/products/jdev/htdocs/jdeveloper11gfaq.html
Peter
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Actually you can. You can use the Trinidad UI component set - the ADF Faces RC components set uses such advanced features IE6 can't support these. In which case you can use Trinidad
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Is APEX scalable for roughly 13,000 to 15,000 concurrent users? If no, what is the maximum limit that it can scale up to?
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